L3W Pre-Annotations part 1
Update #1, Aug. 15: added some more code names, added names of readers who suggested characters from "Bits of Legionnaire Business", added Command Kid
Here's part 1 of my "Legion of Three Worlds" pre-annotations. Up first, the list of Pre-Zero Hour Legionnaires with their creators and first appearances. Part 2 will be the Post-Zero Hour Legion, and Part 3 will be the current Post-Infinite Crisis Legion. This is so I don't make the L3W annotations bigger than they are already likely to be. Anyone appearing who's not on these lists, I'll cover in the body of the annotations.
Some notes:
- For purposes of this list, I'm assuming that the character was created equally by the writer and penciller (which may not be the case every time). Exception: Dawnstar was created by Grell and Levitz, though Grell left the book right before he drew the issue.
And I'm not counting where the character was suggested in a "Bits of Legionnaire Business" column, unless you think I should. - I'm also assuming that a character's creator remains the same regardless of which continuity he/she came from - so for example, all the different Garth Ranzzes from pre-Crisis, post-Zero Hour, and the current version, were all created by Binder and Plastino.
- I'm not a masochist - I'm going to use resources that are already out there. And for this list, I have to thank Nightcrawler over at Legion World for putting together a list of "every Legionnaire, ever" since that's what George Perez has said he wanted to do. That's where this list starts.
- However, from that list, I'm excluding those pre-ZH instances where villains joined via some sort of trickery (like Universo, the LSV,
Command Kid,and Dynamo Boy) or when people were "allowed" to join for some reason (the Murran spies, Proty and Comet in human form) while keeping in the Honorary Legionnaires and Reservists. - I'm also excluding the Imaginary Story/Alternate Universe/Elseworlds/animated versions of the Legion (which means no Adult Legion joiners).
There's going to be a LOT of people in this series. L3W inker Scott Koblish said on LegionWorld that "I'm pretty sure George will get 'em all in there. The first issue has cameos galore, quite a number of them not even listed in the big list at the head of this thread, and the second issue blows the doors off the first. Hang tight Legion fans!"
So here goes... Pre-Annotations part 1a, the Pre-Zero Hour Legion, which includes the Pre-Crisis version (Adventure 247 through the Crisis), the post-Crisis version (Crisis through the Five Year Gap), the Glorithverse version, the SW6 Legionnaires, and the Lightning Saga version. I'm only including their original or most common code name.
In order of joining:
Pre-Crisis
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ADV 247
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Otto Binder
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Al Plastino
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ADV 247
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Otto Binder
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Al Plastino
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ADV 247
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Otto Binder
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Al Plastino
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ACT 276
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Jerry Siegel
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Jim Mooney
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ACT 276
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Jerry Siegel
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Jim Mooney
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ACT 267
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Jerry Siegel
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Jim Mooney
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ACT 267
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Jerry Siegel
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Jim Mooney
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ACT 267
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Jerry Siegel
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Jim Mooney
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ADV 282
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Otto Binder
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George Papp
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ACT 252
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Otto Binder
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Al Plastino
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ACT 276
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Jerry Siegel
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Jim Mooney
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ACT 276
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Jerry Siegel
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Jim Mooney
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MF 101 / ADV 247
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Jerry Siegel
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Joe Shuster
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ACT 276
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Jerry Siegel
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Jim Mooney
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ACT 276
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Jerry Siegel
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Jim Mooney
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SBOY 98
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Jerry Siegel
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Curt Swan
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SBOY 86 / SBOY 98
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Robert Bernstein
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George Papp
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SBOY 89
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Robert Bernstein
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George Papp
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ADV 301
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Jerry Siegel
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John Forte
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ADV 307
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Edmond Hamilton
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John Forte
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ADV 308
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Edmond Hamilton
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John Forte
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SMAN 13 / SPJO 72
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Jerry Siegel
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Leo Nowak
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ADV 317
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Edmond Hamilton
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John Forte
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ADV 327
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Edmond Hamilton
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John Forte
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ADV 328
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Jerry Siegel
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Jim Mooney
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SBOY 125
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Otto Binder
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George Papp
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ADV 346
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Jim Shooter
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Sheldon Moldoff
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ADV 346
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Jim Shooter
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Sheldon Moldoff
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ADV 346
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Jim Shooter
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Sheldon Moldoff
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ADV 346
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Jim Shooter
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Sheldon Moldoff
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SBOY 10 / ADV 355
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Bill Finger
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John Sikela
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ADV 349
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Jim Shooter
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Curt Swan
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ADV 365
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Jim Shooter
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Curt Swan
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ADV 371
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Jim Shooter
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Curt Swan
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ADV 327
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Edmond Hamilton
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John Forte
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SBOY 195
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Cary Bates
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Dave Cockrum
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SBOY 216
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Cary Bates
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Mike Grell
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SBOY 226
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Paul Levitz
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Mike Grell
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SBOY 253
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Gerry Conway
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Joe Staton
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LSHv2 An1
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Paul Levitz
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Keith Giffen
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ADV 350
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E. Nelson Bridwell
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Curt Swan
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Post-Crisis
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ADV 306
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Edmond Hamilton, Buddy La Vigne
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John Forte
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ADV 335
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Edmond Hamilton
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John Forte
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LSHv3 9
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Paul Levitz
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Steve Lightle
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LSHv2 304
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Paul Levitz
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Keith Giffen
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Five Year Gap
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LSHv2 272
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Gerry Conway, Robert Harris
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Steve Ditko
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LSHv4 12
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Keith Giffen, Tom & Mary Bierbaum, Al Gordon
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Keith Giffen
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LSHv3 13
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Paul Levitz
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Steve Lightle
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LSHv3 32
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Paul Levitz
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Greg LaRocque
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ADV 355
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Jim Shooter
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Curt Swan
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LSHv2 272
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Gerry Conway, Robert Cohen
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Steve Ditko
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ADV 355
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Jim Shooter
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Curt Swan
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ADV 306
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Edmond Hamilton
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John Forte
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ADV 306
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Edmond Hamilton
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John Forte
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SBOY 201
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Cary Bates
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Dave Cockrum
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SBOY 201
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Cary Bates
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Dave Cockrum
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LSHv3 An3
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Paul Levitz
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Greg LaRocque
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ADV 306
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Edmond Hamilton
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John Forte
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ADV 342
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Edmond Hamilton, Jeff Greenberg, Leslie Leibow
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Curt Swan
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ADV 301
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Jerry Siegel
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John Forte
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ADV 342
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Edmond Hamilton
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Curt Swan
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Glorithverse
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LSHv4 5
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Keith Giffen, Tom & Mary Bierbaum, Al Gordon
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Keith Giffen
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LSHv4 2
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Keith Giffen, Tom & Mary Bierbaum, Al Gordon
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Keith Giffen
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LSHv4 6
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Keith Giffen, Tom & Mary Bierbaum, Al Gordon
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Keith Giffen
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LSHv4 33
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Tom & Mary Bierbaum
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David A. Williams
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LSHv4 33
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Tom & Mary Bierbaum
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David A. Williams
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LSHv2 An1
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Paul Levitz
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Keith Giffen
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LSHv4 41
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Tom & Mary Bierbaum
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Chris Sprouse
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LSHv4 6
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Keith Giffen, Tom & Mary Bierbaum, Al Gordon
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Keith Giffen
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LSHv4 12
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Keith Giffen, Tom & Mary Bierbaum, Al Gordon
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Keith Giffen
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LSHv4 44
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Tom & Mary Bierbaum
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Stuart Immonen
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LSHv4 44
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Tom & Mary Bierbaum
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Stuart Immonen
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LSHv4 44
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Tom & Mary Bierbaum
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Stuart Immonen
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LSHv4 44
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Tom & Mary Bierbaum
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Stuart Immonen
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ADV 323
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Jerry Siegel, Jim Tilley
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John Forte
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Lightning Saga
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LSHv2 287
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Paul Levitz
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Keith Giffen
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ADV 306
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Edmond Hamilton
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John Forte
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Posts
16 comments:
This chart, and its companions, will be extremely useful to me. I've wanted someplace where I could look up creators of characters for a long time.
I wonder about Laurel Gand. If you're going to include Valor as being the same as Mon-El, I'd think that she would be the same as Supergirl. Especially since she was given essentially the same "joining" story.
See here's the thing that I worry about... every Legionnaire *ever* is going to appear. That's all nice and good. But how many of those characters are going to get any kind of story or character moment? I mean, I'd love to see Quislet and Tellus back, but what's the big deal if all they get to do is hang out in a panel or two and bop someone?
I suspect that we'll get maybe a dozen characters with any kind of significant screen time or story/character moments.
I don't have any confidence that Geoff Johns can handle the big cast. I've enjoyed his runs on single character books (Flash and Stars and STRIPE), but I have been way less impressed when he tackles a group book (Teen Titans, JSA) because the things that I look for in a group book don't often appear in his stories.
Not that I'm not jazzed to see the book. I'm totally looking forward to it and seeing all that Perez goodness.
murr
Hal - it's a judgment call. In my opinion, Laurel Gand is different enough to warrant being a new character because of what her backstory was when she first appeared.
But I'm struggling with things like whether the post-ZH versions of Projectra and Wildfire, for example, are unique. Is Jeka the snake the same as Princess Projectra, just with a different physical body? Do Bates/Cockrum get credit for co-creating the Atom'X/Blastoff version of Wildfire?
And where do I draw the line? Do I give Mark Waid and Barry Kitson co-creator status for their version of Colossal Boy/Micro Lad? Do I give Binder/Plastino credit for the current version of Supergirl? What about the female version of Kid Quantum? Who created the villain Superboy-Prime - Siegel/Shuster, Maggin/Swan (from DC Comics Presents), or Johns/etc. (from Infinite Crisis)?
I don't envy you your endeavor, but I'm glad you're putting forth the effort to do it.
Personally, I'm "Legionally Anal-Retentive"[tm pending] enough that I would attribute all of the creators involved with a particular version of a character when said character is significantly different to the original.
As per your examples...Sensor and Wildfire would have the original creators credited, and the creators involved with the distinctive changes. Ditto Micro Lad, and Superboy-Prime. Kid Quantum II was a unique character on her own, and even referenced the original in her backstory. I would list her separately as I would list the Flashes. Supergirl has stayed pretty much the same throughout.
Good luck!
Fair enough. I think in the case of Post ZH & Waid/Kitson (is that 3-boot?), you'd have to do independent lists (because of the joining order differences) with references back to this one for first appearances/creators of the new versions.
I'd say that any character that clearly filled the role of 1st series character would be credited to the original, even if they are supposed to be "different" (PoZH Sensor, Atom'X/Blastoff & Ferro and then Waid/Kitson's Micro Lad, for example). The only one I could see as being a problem would be Shikari, but I never bought the comments that she wasn't supposed to be Dawnstar, so I'd link back to the original.
Your other examples were distinct within the continuity from their predessors, so they would get their own entries. Female Kid Quantum was distinct from James Cullen, so that would be Waid in the PoZH. Prime would be Maggin/Swan. If nothing else, they both met their predecessors within continuity.
But that's just me. Great resource you've got going.
Murray - I look at it like how Perez drew Crisis on Infinite Earths and JLA/Avengers. Everyone is there, but you can't have everyone front and center. I mean just look at this table: even if you remove Pete, Lana, and Jimmy, you've still got over 70 characters, and that's just from the various flavors of the pre-ZH continuity. We'll be pushing 200 by the time I get the third one up.
Ken - you said I would attribute all of the creators involved with a particular version of a character when said character is significantly different to the original. I like that, and I think I'll use that as my guideline, where "significantly different" is my call. I think Shikari and Dawnstar fit that criteria, as do Supergirl and Andromeda, but the two Supergirls don't, and neither do Silver Age Ferro Lad and Post-ZH Ferro.
I have to draw the line somewhere.
I say use footnotes or credit "major revision creators" or some such. More info (that doesn't clutter) is typically a good thing.
There are some curious codename inclusions/lapses in there. Timber Wolf/Furball, but not Andromeda? Pulse, Wave, Polestar, Time Trapper,...
Should Mentalla get a listing? She appeared to be a posthumous member via inclusion of her statue in the Hall of Heroes.
For purposes of Lo3W, It's kind of a given that we're unlikely to see anyone after #44 on the list, except those who were previously seen in continuity. Might see Myg or Computo (Computo II, actually, yes?), Spider Girl will undoubtedly be in the LSV, and some more of the Subs who became 5YG members are likely.
Jim - I've added the other code names, including the SW6 versions, back in.
Mentalla was not a member, but she was honored with a statue for her sacrifice. But after further review, I added Command Kid to the list, but I'm still keeping Dynamo Boy and the LSV off the list.
I've also added the "suggested by" names from the Bits of Legionnaire Business, changing my mind from my original thoughts, for Spider-Girl, Polar Boy, Color Kid, Nightwing, and Crystal Kid. The other BLB suggestions went to villains, Heroes of Lallor, etc.
Hi Mike, I get that everyone will get an appearance, and I'm cool with not everyone getting a story moment or beat all their own... but at the same time, if it's a story about the Legion, I want to see alot of characters get involved in the story (in the way that Levitz did in GDS). I'm not convinced that Geoff is going to focus his story on more than half a dozen Legionnaires... maybe ten tops. And that just misses the point of the Legion, in my opinion.
Still, we'll see. I'm totally prepared to eat my words next Wednesday.
murr
Good luck with the Annotations! I just did a cursory glance at the first 15 pages and you've got your work cut out for you- I hid 2 Nina's in the book, and if you spot them, you will get ... well, I don't know what kind of award there is for something like that, but congrats if you can find them...
You will see a lot of characters get their moments in the sunshine. It's a big cast, but Geoff and George are working hard to get everybody the love they deserve-
Thanks, Scott! I'll be looking forward to the meltdown.
I hope you'll come back and let us know what or who we've missed, or for corrections, without giving anything away for future issues.
I tend to agree with "anonymous" about putting every character in just for the sake of putting them in. While the major fight scenes are a sight to behold, they can be "too busy."
The one thing I'm hanging onto from all of Geoff Johns' comments is this: "I love the Legion."
P.S. Maybe I'm missing something--who or what are Ninas?
It's a reference to caricaturist Hirschfeld. He puts his daughter Nina's name into each image.
Hey Dave,
Lots of creators "love the Legion", but that doesn't always translate into cool stories.
Waid loves the Legion, and while I love the threeboot, I'm not as fond of the reboot.
Giffen loves the Legion (though I've always enjoyed what he's done with the team, not everyone shares that feeling).
murr
I realize that, murr. I'm just hoping for the best. I guess I am just different. I'm not gaga over Jim Shooter's new stuff like a lot seem to be--to many florgs, foobs, and noobs--it just seems silly. I've not been real impressed with the story lines either. I love his old stuff, but the new? Not so much. I understand what you are saying, though.
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